Highly Liquid Forum facebook twitter google plus rss feed
  #1  
Old 11-29-2015, 09:26 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default COMPLETELY NEW and mad.....

So, this is my first post!
I might be crazy, as I'm pretty new to this whole DIY MIDI thing!
But basically, I have a TC Electronic Nova System, a Line 6 M13, a Korg A3 and a few stomp boxes.

All have their presets which are perfect, however I was to Rack-Mount these, and control everything with a single controller.
Saving on-stage space, essentially!

So in essence, I want to control 3 Multi-Effects Pedals, and 3 Stomp-Boxes with a SINGLE Midi Controller.

How do-able is this?

Thanks in advanced!!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-29-2015, 10:29 PM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

Hi Glenn,

what MIDI msgs do you want or need the custom controller to send to your FX units?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-29-2015, 10:42 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

Hi!

A switch to potentially control 1 of 3 effects units at a time, then a control to;

Bank Up & Bank Down and also Preset Selection.

Then an On/Off for each of the 3 separate stop boxes I have?

Or if theres any easier way, I'm open to suggestions! It's just getting very messy onstage with 2 multi-effects units, a controller for another multi-effects unit, and also 3 stomp-boxes!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-29-2015, 11:08 PM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenntsharkey6 View Post
Hi!

A switch to potentially control 1 of 3 effects units at a time, then a control to;

Bank Up & Bank Down and also Preset Selection.

Then an On/Off for each of the 3 separate stop boxes I have?

Or if theres any easier way, I'm open to suggestions! It's just getting very messy onstage with 2 multi-effects units, a controller for another multi-effects unit, and also 3 stomp-boxes!

OK, many times one switch on a MIDI CPU can do 4 different msgs out with one press of that switch.. just to inform you.

What we need to know is, besides the Bank and Preset change msgs.. what MIDI messages do you want the MIDI CPU to send out when you "stomp" a switch down?
Are we doing Control Change Msgs? MIDI Sysex Msgs?
Do you have the manuals for each unit with the MIDI Implementation Charts for them so you know what MIDI msgs they understand?


Can you give an example of what MIDI msgs you want a few switches to send out? Besides the Bank Up/Down and Preset switches since those are fairly simple.
Please explain this one more to start with

Quote:
A switch to potentially control 1 of 3 effects units at a time
lets try to start out simple and add in features as we go.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-29-2015, 11:24 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

Appreciate you taking so much time for a total newbie like me


What I mean when I say;
"A switch to potentially control 1 of 3 effects units at a time"

Is for example; A message, that will relay a change between the TC to the Korg?


From what I can see, the MIDI Implementation on the TC, is limited, in that you cannot change presets? Would I be right, reading from the Manual?
http://cdn-downloads.tcelectronic.co...al_english.pdf (PG 23)

MIDI Implementation for Korg A3
http://korgaseries.org/pdf/a3manual.pdf
(PG 46)

MIDI Implementation for Line 6 M13
http://uk.line6.com/data/6/0a060b316...ev%20A%20).pdf
(APPENDIX A; A1-14
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-29-2015, 11:25 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

From my understanding, it's also purely control change messages I wish to send to the FX units
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-30-2015, 12:00 AM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

Looks like the TC can do Prog Changes (PC), but it appears that it wants to do Program Mapping to access the presets. It appears Control Changes (CC) are mapped in the TC to turn specific FX's in a preset on/off.


The A3 is very limited. Looks like it can only do standard MIDI PC's... it can possibly do Bank changes too, but via Sysex Messages.
Sysex msgs can be very limited use on the MIDI CPU.


The M13 is the most feature rich unit for MIDI control. Lots of CC's are used on it. I can probably get that one to do a lot of things...



So, when you say..

Quote:
relay a change between the TC to the Korg
what exactly are you wanting to happen when you press a switch that does this?
Please be specific and detailed as possible. Try to spell it out, step by step what is going to happen, or you want to happen.

Realize we can make each of the three units you mentioned above to have it's own MIDI CHANNEL so that unit only responds to msgs meant for it and ignore msgs for the others.
This is important since we will need to "chain" all units together.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-30-2015, 12:23 AM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

I think that's what I'm trying to get at, that a switch will literally cycle though each MIDI Channel; MIDI 1 - TC
MIDI 2 - Korg A3
MIDI 3 - Line 6 M13

I want to press a switch, that will 'open the gates' to the TC that will then let me bank up/down and cycle through a preset; with the X amount of buttons/switches.
Then I want to press that same switch, that will 'open the gates' to the Line 6 M13, to again let me bank up/down, etc

Now when you say Program Change, would that also go under a Preset Change?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-30-2015, 12:41 AM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenntsharkey6 View Post
I think that's what I'm trying to get at, that a switch will literally cycle though each MIDI Channel; MIDI 1 - TC
MIDI 2 - Korg A3
MIDI 3 - Line 6 M13

I want to press a switch, that will 'open the gates' to the TC that will then let me bank up/down and cycle through a preset; with the X amount of buttons/switches.
Then I want to press that same switch, that will 'open the gates' to the Line 6 M13, to again let me bank up/down, etc

Now when you say Program Change, would that also go under a Preset Change?

ahh.. now I think I follow what you are wanting to do.
So you want one switch to select one of the FX units, then two other switches to go up or down in Program changes.
Might be tricky, but I think it can be done and perhaps even get you some LED indicators to let you know which unit you are controlling.


Program Change is a standard MIDI message.
Preset is a selected FX setup on your unit. "Pre set up" by you.
The TC mentions on Pg 21 how it will translate a Program Change to switch to a specific Preset at a specific Bank.


be back to check on this later....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-30-2015, 12:52 AM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

Yes that's EXACTLY what I'm getting at

There's some other more complicated stuff I'd love to do, like have a specific delay on/off, reverb on/off, drive on/off, compressor on/off switches also, that would be mapped to the effects units also!

But, 1 thing at a time here eh?

Thanks for your help so far!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-30-2015, 02:40 AM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

OK...


it's been awhile since I did any help for designing/programming a MIDI CPU for anyone on here.. I had to revisit the manual to check on some things that will make things difficult.


We may not be able to change the MIDI channel for the Bank Up/Down or Program Change up/down switches.
It may turn out that you need separate sets of switches for each unit.. I msg'd the owner/designer about this.. It may be possible to use what is called a Register.. which is a memory space in the CPU that can be variable and manipulated.. add/subtract, etc. the value in it.
IF I can use a Register to select the MIDI channel used when the UP/Down switches are pressed, then we are good.. if not, then we must use dedicated UP/DOWN switches for each unit.

I can definitely make like.. three pairs of UP/DOWN switches with their own dedicated channels.. I can even make them become Bank or Program Change with the press of a switch using what is called Layer Selection mode.. basically in one mode they are Bank switches, in another mode they are PC switches.


I can also do dedicated switches to turn parts of your FX programs ON/OFF on the TC and M13, from what I can see in their manuals.. the A3 can't since it is so limited.


So maybe picture a foot board with Three pairs of UP/Down switches, a switch to go from Bank to PC's and back again..
then below the two pairs of the UP/DWN switches, you could have several switches control the TC and M13's FX's on/off.. so like on the T3 you could have up to like.. 9 switches to control the various FX's on/off.
The M13 would be complicated with all the 1A, 2A, 3A, 1B, 2B, 3B's going on.
Looks like the M13 has 4 virtual pedals on it with up to 3 FX's to run on each "Pedal".


There's many ways to tackle your project. There's many Pro's and Con's to using the MIDI CPU for certain tasks.. some things simply cannot be done, some things easy to do.. other things can be done, but takes some trickery.. and then there are things that can be done, but only under certain circumstances and wont let other things be done if you try to make it happen.

Remember we only have 24 I/O's to use on the CPU.
That could mean only 24 switches, BUT we could use whats called Switch Matrixes for some uses to gain many more switches than 24.. such as all the CC's used to turn FX's on/off on the M13. But we couldnt use the same switches on the TC.. it would have to use it's own set of switches that would have to use a different Switch Matrix than the M13's.


Designing a custom controller with the MIDI CPU can be challenging for cases like yours. We can probably get many things to happen and work like you wish, and some things maybe not.. other things may require TWO midi CPU's to get the job done.

LED's can be used, but it sounds like we may end up using most of the 24 I/O's up with Matrix's and other switches.
LED's have certain rules and must be used on certain Control Terminals (CT's).. the I/O's of the CPU.



How were you going to keep track of what Bank/PC you are on when you press the UP/DOWN switches?
Usually the CPU will be set up to start at a specific number, then +/- the number when you press UP/DOWN and stop at a specific value or WRAP around to the highest/lowest number when you exceed a set value or go below 0.


Bear with me.. many questions must be asked and we have to go back and forth to sort this out.
like I said, it's limitations of the CPU that gets us the most.. we say it can do this or that, but it wont do that or this if you do the other at the same time.. kinda thing.
This is why we start simple and work our way to more complicated parts... in this case, it sounds like we need to get the complicated part figured out first so it will work with the simple parts.

So let me know if you can stand to have three pairs of UP/DOWN switches and we can go from there... Or maybe John will chime in and explain how we can get a variable MIDI channel for one switch (so far the manual does not imply it can be done...)


I will try to help as much as I can, but I may be away from time to time to catch up on work/life/etc.. I like to help people with their projects when I can.. it helps keep me sharp with programming/binary/hex thinking and design puzzles in general since it is what I like to tinker with. Plus it is cool to say, "Hey.. I helped BUILD that!"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-30-2015, 07:26 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

Okay, in terms of having a separate 'group' of switches for each unit, that wouldn't be the end of the world, the unit may be bigger that I want it to be, but I could live with that, if it came to it!
So the Layer Selection sounds like a great idea, and doesn't seem too complicated for performance purposes either; ease of use, etc.

Having the switches as dedicated on/off for the FX programs would be great for the TC and M13, as the Korg is more-less used for certain parts of a set-list, so it would either be used, or not used, so I wouldn't need to turn on/off FX programs on the Korg, so sounds good again!


Designing a custom controller with the MIDI CPU can be challenging for cases like yours. We can probably get many things to happen and work like you wish, and some things maybe not.. other things may require TWO midi CPU's to get the job done.

LED's can be used, but it sounds like we may end up using most of the 24 I/O's up with Matrix's and other switches.
LED's have certain rules and must be used on certain Control Terminals (CT's).. the I/O's of the CPU.



Initially, my idea was to use LED's to keep a track on what program is being used, but that may be challenging, when I step back and think of how complex it will be with three multi-FX units.
I was wondering, would there be anything to clone or mimic the program display screens on the units? Or a way for a display to display; TC-1, TC-1, TC-3, etc and M13-1, M13-2, M13-3, M13-4, etc?


But essentially, 3 pairs of up/down switched wouldn't bother me at all! Like i mentioned, it could simplify things for me!

You've really went into lots of detail and are making me think outside the box, appreciate it again!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-01-2015, 04:35 AM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

OK.. sounds like you understand the limitations we have to deal with.

Give me a day or two to mull over a design that may be useful to you.

Creating a display would be difficult and take up too many of the CT's. Just 3 numeric displays will use up around 10 CT's.
We can only display numbers. (A-F could be displayed, but that's only in HEX display mode).

Best I can say is you will need to rely on your devices displays or look elsewhere to create a custom display system which is more advanced than what the MIDI CPU can offer.



Perhaps you can list me what FX's you want to control under the UP/DOWN buttons for the TC and M13.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-01-2015, 08:00 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

I feel like I'm starting to understand it better, and I'm delving into the MIDI CPU manual to gather a bit more understanding with this!

Although my next question might blow that out of the water; how many separate 'switches' to send messages would the MIDI CPU carry?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-01-2015, 09:33 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

So i've attached a rough idea, I'm not sure how the extra 'bypass' switches will fair out, but I reckon it's a good idea!

Also, i've added a button named 'Tuner' just as an idea, to control a stompbox tuner I have, although I'm aware it would require some kind of loop/control switcher?
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-02-2015, 01:53 AM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

sure that's all the switches you want?

I can get you a lot more than that working...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-02-2015, 10:12 PM
glenntsharkey6 glenntsharkey6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Default

Really?!
Okay, so i've added a new line of switches, for controlling for FX for the TC and M13, and also a few for stomp boxes I have.
I'm pretty sure thats all i can think of now that I need to control!
Unless theres anything else speaking from experience that similar projects have added??

In terms of having the Tuner and OD-1 controlled (as they only have 1/4" jack in/out) I think I'm right in saying I will need a Midi Switcher to control this, something I've sourced via eBay, that I'm 99% sure will work; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MIDI-Switc...QAAOSwy4hUR38m
Attached Images
 

Last edited by glenntsharkey6; 12-03-2015 at 12:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-04-2015, 01:47 AM
Synthetech's Avatar
Synthetech Synthetech is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 711
Default

I would suggest get Verb and Drive out from your UP/DWN switches. Just use two more switches for each pair... 4 switches more total.

It makes it easier to make the Up/Dwn switches go back and forth from Program Change select to Bank Select.. unless you want them to only be Program Change..


The device on ebay.. what MIDI Msg's does it respond to? I looked at the manual for it real quick, but could not see where it say's what MIDI msg's you send the device.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.