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  #1  
Old 03-28-2012, 09:44 PM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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Default MIDI Player Vibraphone project

Questions for John;

I've begun a project to MIDI'fy a three octave Jenco Vibraphone. I've done chimes and another percussion instrument (steel drums), and both went well as fixed note timing devices.

With the Vibraphone being 37 notes, I need to string two MD24's in a daisy chain.
Setting the note assignments are no problem. Where I need some help is in regard to:

1. Fixed pulse width support with new production MD24's.
I just received a pair of MD24's this week. There nothing on them to indicate their program level. Do these already support fixed note timing by default?
Do I only need to assign the timing value, or do I need to upload the program file I received previously (md24-1-4.syx)?

2. Servo Control.
I plan to use a high torque servo to control the sustain pedal. After reading the servo configuration information, it appears I can define one channel for servo use. The servo will have programmed stops, and controlled by the note on command. Is there any conflict in using a servo mixed with fixed note outputs?

At the bottom are the sysex files I plan to send to MD24 #1, and MD 24 #2.
Please let me know if I've done anything wrong.


Sysex file for MD24 #1

F0 00 01 5D 03 01
13
00 01 00 41
01 01 00 42
02 01 00 43
03 01 00 44
04 01 00 45
05 01 00 46
06 01 00 47
07 01 00 48
08 01 00 49
09 01 00 4A
0A 01 00 4B
0B 01 00 4C
0C 01 00 4D
0D 01 00 4E
0E 01 00 4F
0F 01 00 50
10 01 00 51
11 01 00 52
12 01 00 53
13 01 00 54
14 01 00 55
15 01 00 56
16 01 00 57
17 01 00 58
F7

Sysex file for MD24 #2

F0 00 01 5D 03 02
13
00 01 00 59
01 01 00 5A
02 01 00 5B
03 01 00 5C
04 01 00 5D
05 01 00 5E
06 01 00 5F
07 01 00 60
08 01 00 61
09 01 00 62
0A 01 00 63
0B 01 00 64
0C 01 00 65
0D 0F 1D 3F
0E 00 00 00
0F 00 00 00
10 00 00 00
11 00 00 00
12 00 00 00
13 00 00 00
14 00 00 00
15 00 00 00
16 00 00 00
17 00 00 00
F7

Thanks in advance for your help with this.
Regards, Jeff

Last edited by Jeff; 03-28-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2012, 04:22 PM
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Hi Jeff, sorry for the slow response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
1. Fixed pulse width support with new production MD24's.
I just received a pair of MD24's this week. There nothing on them to indicate their program level. Do these already support fixed note timing by default?
Do I only need to assign the timing value, or do I need to upload the program file I received previously (md24-1-4.syx)?
Yes, you'll need to perform the firmware update. As of this writing, MD24s are still shipping with Firmware version 1.3.

Quote:
2. Servo Control.
I plan to use a high torque servo to control the sustain pedal. After reading the servo configuration information, it appears I can define one channel for servo use. The servo will have programmed stops, and controlled by the note on command. Is there any conflict in using a servo mixed with fixed note outputs?
There should not be any conflict. That said, since firmware 1.4 is still in "beta" status, I'd recommend monitoring things closely, and if you detect any unexpected behavior, please let me know.

Quote:
At the bottom are the sysex files I plan to send to MD24 #1, and MD 24 #2.
Please let me know if I've done anything wrong.


Sysex file for MD24 #1

F0 00 01 5D 03 01
13
00 01 00 41
01 01 00 42
02 01 00 43
03 01 00 44
04 01 00 45
05 01 00 46
06 01 00 47
07 01 00 48
08 01 00 49
09 01 00 4A
0A 01 00 4B
0B 01 00 4C
0C 01 00 4D
0D 01 00 4E
0E 01 00 4F
0F 01 00 50
10 01 00 51
11 01 00 52
12 01 00 53
13 01 00 54
14 01 00 55
15 01 00 56
16 01 00 57
17 01 00 58
F7

Sysex file for MD24 #2

F0 00 01 5D 03 02
13
00 01 00 59
01 01 00 5A
02 01 00 5B
03 01 00 5C
04 01 00 5D
05 01 00 5E
06 01 00 5F
07 01 00 60
08 01 00 61
09 01 00 62
0A 01 00 63
0B 01 00 64
0C 01 00 65
0D 0F 1D 3F
0E 00 00 00
0F 00 00 00
10 00 00 00
11 00 00 00
12 00 00 00
13 00 00 00
14 00 00 00
15 00 00 00
16 00 00 00
17 00 00 00
F7
Sysex looks good to me, but keep in mind this will only work if the MD24 has been upgraded to version 1.4.
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2012, 05:44 PM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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I had sent this as a PM to John earlier, although I'm hoping someone else may be able to give me the answer to this problem since he is often very busy.

I am using MD24 channel 13(0D) as a servo output to control the foot pedal on a vibraphone.

I need the servo to move with a note on command, so that I can embed a continuous note into the music to control the sustain pedal during the time the key is held down.
All other channels are used as fixed timing note outputs. The MD24 has already been reprogrammed with md24-1-4.syx. The fixed timing note outputs work as expected, except that the servo output is dead.
I can't use note volume for control, since as I understand it, this would affect the volume of all note outputs.

I have been tinkering with various sysex messages over a period of a couple weeks, and none produce a PWM output on 0D. The configuration sysex below is the last one I tried and failed on.




F0 00 01 5D 03 01
03
00 01 00 41
01 01 00 42
02 01 00 43
03 01 00 44
04 01 00 45
05 01 00 46
06 01 00 47
07 01 00 48
08 01 00 49
09 01 00 4A
0A 01 00 4B
0B 01 00 4C
0C 01 00 4D
0D 21 00 4E
0E 00 00 00
0F 00 00 00
10 00 00 00
11 00 00 00
12 00 00 00
13 00 00 00
14 00 00 00
15 00 00 00
16 00 00 00
17 00 00 00
F7


Thanks so much!

Regards, Jeff
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2012, 11:50 PM
Jim McDougall Jim McDougall is offline
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That part of the config looks ok for output 0D as far as setting it to servo forward on Midi channel default but I believe there is a second config message required in order to set the PWM characteristics for that output

F0 00 01 5D 03 02
0D 'ww' 'ss' 'pp'
F7


This uses a different header from the basic config
see page 13 section3 in the MD24 manual for how to define the values for ww ss pp
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  #5  
Old 05-22-2012, 03:56 PM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
That part of the config looks ok for output 0D as far as setting it to servo forward on Midi channel default but I believe there is a second config message required in order to set the PWM characteristics for that output

F0 00 01 5D 03 02
0D 'ww' 'ss' 'pp'
F7


This uses a different header from the basic config
see page 13 section3 in the MD24 manual for how to define the values for ww ss pp
Hi Jim, Thank You for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate your input.

I updated the main program using the MD24-1-4.syx file. The update provides programmable note length timing.

Either I am not grasping the description / concept of how to integrate servo control on specific outputs, or there is a conflict with the 1.4 program update.

I've tried many variations of the output assignment sysex, and it always results in the 0D output delivering a single pulse equivalent to the fixed programmable note length of the other outputs.

Also, the Figure 3-3 information appears to conflict with what is shown in figure 2-5.

I've attached the last sysex message data I used to test it with.
The first line after the header sets the output channel and servo travel.
Then further down the condition for servo movement is set as note forward (21h) on key (4Eh).

F0 00 01 5D 03 02
03
0D 0F 1D 3F
00 01 00 41
01 01 00 42
02 01 00 43
03 01 00 44
04 01 00 45
05 01 00 46
06 01 00 47
07 01 00 48
08 01 00 49
09 01 00 4A
0A 01 00 4B
0B 01 00 4C
0C 01 00 4D
0D 21 00 4E
0E 00 00 00
0F 00 00 00
10 00 00 00
11 00 00 00
12 00 00 00
13 00 00 00
14 00 00 00
15 00 00 00
16 00 00 00
17 00 00 00
F7

I'm hoping that John will also see and respond to this posting.

Regards, Jeff
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  #6  
Old 05-25-2012, 05:44 PM
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Hi Jeff,

Sorry to hear about the trouble you're having.

It's entirely possible that the MD24 "beta" firmware for fixed-length pulse output breaks the servo output functionality. You might be the first person to attempt to use servo output with version 1.4.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to get to this issue until next week. I'll attempt to reproduce the problem and will report back.
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2012, 12:27 AM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Hi Jeff,

Sorry to hear about the trouble you're having.

It's entirely possible that the MD24 "beta" firmware for fixed-length pulse output breaks the servo output functionality. You might be the first person to attempt to use servo output with version 1.4.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to get to this issue until next week. I'll attempt to reproduce the problem and will report back.
John, Thank You for responding. I'll hold on the pedal servo side of the project until you have time to look into the 1.4 servo compatibility.

Regards, Jeff
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  #8  
Old 05-30-2012, 11:15 PM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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I took a few minutes to publish the first performance of the RoboVibes on youtube after tuning the fixed note length.

The tremelo motor is turned off, and the strike force (volume) is set to the highest. Wow, it is very loud.
It was far too loud for the microphones inside the Sony camcorder, and is somewhat "clangy" in the video. It's much nicer when standing ten feet away.

Now, if I can only get that pesky sustain pedal under servo control...

"This Diamond Ring"
http://youtu.be/Jj_O5ixSmJw

Regards, Jeff
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  #9  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:05 AM
Jim McDougall Jim McDougall is offline
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Congratulations -- that looks and sounds great !!
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  #10  
Old 06-01-2012, 06:55 PM
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Jeff, great video! Thank you for posting, and for the inspiration.

Wanted to let you know that I haven't forgotten about the servo issue.

Today I received a new logic analyzer which should help me work this out. Ditched my ancient analog Tek scope at long last.
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Old 06-04-2012, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
F0 00 01 5D 03 02
03
0D 0F 1D 3F
00 01 00 41
01 01 00 42
02 01 00 43
03 01 00 44
04 01 00 45
05 01 00 46
06 01 00 47
07 01 00 48
08 01 00 49
09 01 00 4A
0A 01 00 4B
0B 01 00 4C
0C 01 00 4D
0D 21 00 4E
0E 00 00 00
0F 00 00 00
10 00 00 00
11 00 00 00
12 00 00 00
13 00 00 00
14 00 00 00
15 00 00 00
16 00 00 00
17 00 00 00
F7
Jeff,

Thanks for your patience.

One thing I have noticed about your sysex above:

It appears you are trying to combine the "MIDI configuration" message (starts with F0 00 01 5D 03 01) and the "PWM configuration" message (starts with F0 00 01 5D 03 02) into a single message.

The two messages have to be used separately.

That said, I tried setting up an output in servo mode under firmware version 1.4 "beta" and wasn't able to get it working. I also noticed another problem: the fixed-length output pulse works fine, except that the output pulse is double the expected length as defined in the manual.

Based on my coding load at the moment I'm leaning toward suspending devlopment on this "branch" of the MD24 firmware tree. Since 1.4 has other issues (1. ACT LED behavior 2. it seems to require that a configuration sysex message be sent twice to be accepted), it's probably much more efficient to get these working in a complete re-write of the firmware.

The MD24 will benefit significantly from a complete re-write. There are several features that are being requested that can be included in the revamped firmware. The new version will be available to anyone with a Rev G MD24 via a firmware update sysex message.

The next question would be "when". My attempts at predicting these types of dates have been uniformly been unsuccessful. Instead, I am going to do my best to be transparent so that anyone who is interested can monitor the progress.

At the moment, my priorities are:

1. Get the UMR2 out the door.
2. Pursue a bug in MIDI CPU Firmware 1.2 / Complete V1.3.
3. Complete MD24 V2.0

I hope this is information is somewhat useful to you. Sorry for not being able to promise a more immediate resolution.
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2012, 04:08 PM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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The smartest choice I could make for an immediate closure is to add a third MD24. And running the stock software to drive the pedal servo, then update the software in the second unit later when version 2.0 is released.

Regards, Jeff

Last edited by Jeff; 06-06-2012 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Updated to indicate the project direction.
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  #13  
Old 06-11-2012, 10:04 PM
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Default Bugs

I have spent a few more hours (6) working with a stock MD24 running rev 1.3 trying to wag a servo on a note output.

The servo in my application requires a ~5ms minimum pulse, and full scale swing is another 2ms.

I used the following sysex to define the start point, step resolution, and origin:

F0 00 01 5D 03 02
00 3F 1D 3F (as close as I can get to 5ms pwm origin), (7.5us step resolution), (origin near clockwise home)
00 23 00 3C (velocity trigger on middle C)
F7

I'm using only channel 0 as the servo output, no other outputs are used.

Following the transmitted sysex message, I monitored the output on a scope. It did scale to about 2ms.

Then I needed to make adjustments to the pulse width step value.
Nothing changes, regardless of the values I assign.

I went back and tried to change the PWM scale, and nothing happens.
It is stuck at 2ms, and no changes to the sysex effect any output change.

I discovered the rev F board does not support a "return to default" mode as the rev E did. I tried booting with different PRGM terminals strapped to gnd, and aside from the bootloader invoking on PRGM0, nothing worked.

So I now have a stuck MD24, and I still can't get a servo to move on a key press.


I don't understand why it has to be so difficult to move a servo a defined distance on a key press (note trigger). This isn't fun anymore. All I want to do is effect a pulse width change when a particular key is pressed, and have the pulse width hold until the key is released.

UPDATE: it's worse than I thought.

I have some small RC servos, and tried using them with the stuck 2.5ms value. None respond as normal or inverted signal input with a simple note on key press sysex copied below:

F0 00 01 5D 03 01
00 01 00 3C
01 23 00 3C
F7


I need help. Please advise how to resolve or work around these problems.

Regards, Jeff

Last edited by Jeff; 06-11-2012 at 11:47 PM. Reason: updated
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  #14  
Old 06-12-2012, 04:27 PM
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Default MD24 rev F software bug confirmed

I decided to open up another MD24 rev F spare and program it with the servo sysex message below, using the standard header suffix of "01" versus "02", with no PWM modifiers:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sysex

F0 00 01 5D 03 01
01 27 00 04
F7
I used a CC message on channel 4 (generic foot control) to wag a little RC servo 45 degrees from end-to-end, and it worked perfectly.

Then, I programmed the MD24 rev F with the following sysex on output 1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by next sysex
F0 00 01 5D 03 01
01 23 00 3C
F7
I used a slider to vary velocity on middle C, and it worked perfectly. Servo angle varied 45 degrees between 0-127.

I did not want to take a chance and kill the spare MD24 rev F by using a "02" header suffix and modifying the PWM window.

Since there's no way I can stretch the MD24 PWM pulse to 5ms, I decided to edit the program in the processor driving the large servo to be compatible with a standard RC style servo. The servo maker forwarded the source and libraries for it, and it was relatively easy to change how he implemented the capture/compare register as a servo pwm control input.

Sadly, I could have avoided killing the first MD24 rev F if I hadn't tried to vary the PWM window scaling.

After nearly eight hours of messing with this stuff, I decided to reconnect the original MD24 rev F and try programming it with the above sysex messages, in hopes it would "heal thyself".

It failed. The PWM window is still stuck at 2.5ms.

I tried again to force it back to an original state by programming the following sysex message:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PWM window modifier sysex
F0 00 01 5D 03 02
01 0F 1D 3F
01 23 00 3C
F7
It also failed. The PWM window is still stuck at 2.5ms.

I spent another hour stuffing what would be illegal, out of range values into the PWM modifiers, hoping this would force a corruption and a subsequent reboot to stock.
Nope they all failed. It's still stuck.

Again, to make it very clear to anyone reading this, there is a bug in the Servo PWM window modifiers using the "02" header suffix. And no way to recover from it that I can find.

Here's an old school image of my scope displaying the stuck PWM value of ~2.5ms, and it can't be varied with velocity input, or CC messages. Scale is 1ms, calipers are at 2.5ms.



The spotty technical support has made for a frustrating user experience.

Evidently I may be the first to give the 1.3 program in the MD24 rev F a real shake down.




Regards, Jeff

Last edited by Jeff; 06-12-2012 at 04:41 PM. Reason: added scope shot
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:23 PM
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Jeff,

Thank you for all of the detail and for your patience.

I will be looking further into this tonight and will post more.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:19 AM
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Jeff,

I think I have the answer for you. I've used bold only to emphasize the key point. I'm happy to be helping out.

I'm looking at this sysex code that you have posted above:

Code:
F0 00 01 5D 03 02
01 0F 1D 3F
01 23 00 3C
F7
And this one:

Code:
F0 00 01 5D 03 02
00 3F 1D 3F // (as close as I can get to 5ms pwm origin), (7.5us step resolution), (origin near clockwise home)
00 23 00 3C // (velocity trigger on middle C)
F7

These messages are problematic because each attempts to set both the PWM configuration and the MIDI response for the terminal in the same message.

Two separate sysex messages are required. One for only PWM configuration, and one for only MIDI response. The header of the message determines the contents.

F0 00 01 5D 03 01: MIDI Configuration
F0 00 01 5D 03 02: PWM Configuration

The MIDI Configuration Sysex Message specifies what MIDI message one or more MD24 outputs respond to.

The PWM Configuration Sysex Message changes the PWM spec for one or more MD24 outputs, if the outputs happen to be configured for servo output by the MIDI Configuration message.

So if you send two separate messages, I think the problem will be solved. For example:

Code:
F0 00 01 5D 03 01 // MIDI Configuration Header
00 23 00 3C // MD24 Output #0: velocity trigger on middle C
F7
Code:
F0 00 01 5D 03 02  // PWM Configuration Header
00 3F 1D 3F // MD24 Output #0: (as close as I can get to 5ms pwm origin), (7.5us step resolution), (origin near clockwise home)
F7
Each message must be sent separately, and confirmed separately by the MD24 (with the "3 blinks").

The reason the output was "stuck" was because the MIDI configuration bytes included in the PWM configuration message replaced the PWM configuration bytes immediately preceding.

That is to say, these bytes set the PWM config for output #0:

00 3F 1D 3F

...but they were immediately followed by (and overwritten by) these:

00 23 00 3C

...which were also interpreted by the MD24 as a PWM configuration.

Since the "step" value is 00h (only 0.25us), there is no detectable change in output.

Does that make sense? I think this explains the problem, but if not, please let me know. I will be monitoring the thread tomorrow for your response.

Last edited by John; 06-13-2012 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:22 PM
Jeff Jeff is offline
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Facepalm. I get it now.

Hi John,
I mistakenly understood the PWM modifier sysex header preceded the output definitions, Versus being a separate sysex message by itself.

Thank You for the quick review and explanation of why I could not recover from the PWM modifiers and stuck PWM value.

I sent this PWM configuration message first, separately:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sysexpwm
F0 00 01 5D 03 02
00 0F 1D 3F
F7
Since I had previously resolved the PWM minimum pulse of the giant servo requiring non-standard 5ms (3Fh), I assigned it's value back to the RC servo standard of 0Fh.

Success! the stuck PWM window was back to about 1ms

Followed by this MIDI configuration, separately:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sysexcc
F0 00 01 5D 03 01
00 27 00 04 (simulated pedal signal CC message using a slider in the MIDI app)
F7
Separately,
Initially I had hoped to cycle the servo using a note trigger assigned to a key outside the vibraphone scale, making for a fairly easy way to program the sustain pedal. It would be inserted into one of the tracks.

From what I have learned, there appears to be no way to wag a servo from end-to-end (0-127) using only a note trigger.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. And please elaborate if there may be a recommended way to accomplish this type of task.
Basically the servo needs to move full swing on a bit change.


Again, Thank You for explaining how I got myself in trouble with the PWM configuration message.

Regards, Jeff
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:08 PM
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Hi Jeff,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Initially I had hoped to cycle the servo using a note trigger assigned to a key outside the vibraphone scale, making for a fairly easy way to program the sustain pedal. It would be inserted into one of the tracks.

From what I have learned, there appears to be no way to wag a servo from end-to-end (0-127) using only a note trigger.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. And please elaborate if there may be a recommended way to accomplish this type of task.
Basically the servo needs to move full swing on a bit change.
So, ideally the servo would be at position 0, then a specific note would set the position to 127 and hold it there for the duration of the note. When the note is released, the servo returns to position 0. Is that correct?

You are on the right track with using note velocity to control the servo. The trouble is, a note-off message is ignored by the MD24 for servo control purposes.

Also, you can't go from 127 back to 0 with another note, because a note-on message with velocity=0 is technically a "note-off" message too, and is also ignored by the MD24 for servo control purposes.

Instead, I would recommend sending a note with velocity 127 to wag the servo one way, and then send the note with velocity 1 to wag it the other way. This way, you can get a range of 1-127 with a pair of notes.

Not as simple as just one note being held, and you'll get slightly less range, but that's the simplest approach I can think of, using notes.

An alternate approach: dedicate a separate MIDI channel to the sustain pedal, and use note number to control the servo. Then, note #0 wags the servo one way, and note #127 wags it the other way.

Second alternate approach: use CC events to control the servo.

Let me know if that is helpful.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Hi Jeff,
So, ideally the servo would be at position 0, then a specific note would set the position to 127 and hold it there for the duration of the note. When the note is released, the servo returns to position 0. Is that correct?
That's exactly what I hoped was already available.

But it isn't. This would have made for an easy pedal implementation.

The velocity method is limited to exactly what you described. It adds as much work as using the CC method from scratch.


I set up a new track as a controller, and had to define each movement as a separate command. It's somewhat tricky to time it right, since it's done offline, and can be a really long list of individual commands.

That's where the note on method would have shown it's value; the timing could be a realtime composition edit while performing, and it also avoids a long list of individual controller command events.

This may be a useful feature for the MD24 rev 2.0 software:

mm Mode Description ch ss

30 Servo Note On Cycle, normal channel Note Number (hex)

31 Servo Note On Cycle, reverse

Output 0 Configuration: 00 30 00 3C
These output modes cycle the servo from 0-127, 127-0 for the duration of the assigned note press.

I have learned a lot about MIDI and PWM servo control lately.
Today I'll piece a little 12F PIC program together that monitors an output from the MD24 as a note on command, and generates a simple two-step PWM output to wag the servo a fixed distance.

Again, Thank You for your help.
I really appreciated your quick replies to my problems and setup questions.

Regards, Jeff
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:58 PM
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Jeff, you are welcome. I'm glad to help out. And I'm enjoying the conversation.

I think you have an excellent suggestion regarding the new servo output modes. I have added the feature to the list for firmware 2.0. I think the new firmware will make the MD24 much more useful than it already is.

I hope you'll post a new video with the servo activated sustain!
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