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  #1  
Old 06-28-2012, 07:55 PM
nielow nielow is offline
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Default CT-410V/MT-400V with UMR2

Hey,

today my UMR2 order arrived.
I think I hooked everything up correctly, but have a problem with the setup procedure: After step 5, the ACT LED stays on forever.

I'll post additional information later, and will also try to read the diagnostic sysex msg.
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  #2  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nielow View Post
Hey,

today my UMR2 order arrived.
I think I hooked everything up correctly, but have a problem with the setup procedure: After step 5, the ACT LED stays on forever.

I'll post additional information later, and will also try to read the diagnostic sysex msg.
Glad to hear that you've started with this.

To troubleshoot this problem:

Try disconnecting all select lines from the UMR2 except for one. Try the setup procedure, and see if you still have the step 5 problem. If the problem is not observed, connect a second select line and try again. Then a third, etc.

This way, you may be able to isolate a single select line that is causing trouble. From there, we can work further to solve the problem.

Hope this helps. The diagnostic info will be useful. A sketch or photo of your wiring will help, too.
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  #3  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:48 PM
nielow nielow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
The diagnostic info will be useful. A sketch or photo of your wiring will help, too.
For a photo of my wiring see the thread in the UMR forum. I'll try to find my notes where I sketched the matrix circuit tomorrow.

Here are the diagnostic SysEx messages:

Received after entering setup mode (Step 4, with releasing the PRGM switch):
00 F0 00 01 5D 07 00 00 01 07 00 30 20 F7

When I press all keys, with the red LED staying on as described before, I get
another SysEx message after "storing" the programming:
00 F0 00 01 5D 07 00 00 01 07 00 30 20 F7
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Old 06-29-2012, 07:58 PM
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Ok.

Let me know what you find out by connecting the select lines one-at-a-time as described above.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:47 PM
nielow nielow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Glad to hear that you've started with this.

To troubleshoot this problem:

Try disconnecting all select lines from the UMR2 except for one. Try the setup procedure, and see if you still have the step 5 problem. If the problem is not observed, connect a second select line and try again. Then a third, etc.

This way, you may be able to isolate a single select line that is causing trouble. From there, we can work further to solve the problem.
Unfortunately, the problem occures if I connect *any* select line.
It only "works" (red light turning off, green blinking after sending MIDI Note), if no select line is connected.

What could that be?

With only line 9 connected, sysex message is: 00 F0 00 01 5D 07 00 00 01 0B 00 30 00 F7
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:22 PM
nielow nielow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
A sketch or photo of your wiring will help, too.

This is my wiring:



The PINs where I connected the UMR2 are labeled with 1-15 from right to left:

15 - S1
14 - S2
13 - S3
12 - S4
11 - S5
10 - S6
9 - S7
8 - S8
7 - D2
6 - D3
5 - D4
4 - D5
3 - D6
2 - D1
1 - S9

On the other image you see my notes of the key switch matrix. The two sets of pins labeled with 1-6 and 1-9 on my notes correspond to the two transparent brownish ribbon cables you can see below the 15-pins wide cable where I connected the UMR. The circuit remapping the 1-6 and 1-9 cables to the 15-pins you can also see on my notes.

Polarity is "-" ("active low"), right?

BTW: Pressing some Keys on the connected MIDI keyboard leads to the CT playing multiple notes simultaneously, like this (not complete but close):

Pressing f#0, c1, a1, d#1 leads to play g1-a#1-b1.
Pressing g#0, a0, a#0, c#1, d1 leads to play f#2-g2-g#2-a2-a#2-b2.
Pressing b0 plays d2.
Pressing b1 plays f2.
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2012, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nielow View Post
Unfortunately, the problem occures if I connect *any* select line.
It only "works" (red light turning off, green blinking after sending MIDI Note), if no select line is connected.

What could that be?
Ok. Here's how the UMR2 setup procedure works internally.

After you send the "first note" via MIDI, the UMR2 starts to monitor the switch matrix for activity. That's when the green LED starts its slow continuous blinking. The UMR2 is "waiting" for you to press a key.

So that behavior is expected with zero select lines connected. With no select signal, the UMR2 detects no key switch activity and will wait forever, until the PRGM switch is pressed to end the setup procedure. (But of course, with no key activity recorded, there can be no MIDI retrofit functionality.)

When you have the CT-410 matrix wired and begin the setup procedure, you are reporting that the red LED "never turns off" after the "first note" is sent via MIDI. For some reason, the UMR2 is "detecting" key activity at all times, even when you are not pressing keys. What appears to be the red LED not turning off is actually a continuous sequence of keyswitch activity indications.

So we need to figure out what is causing the UMR2 to detect keyswitch activity that isn't actually happening. Does that make sense?

This is kind of tricky to figure out. Since each of the select lines exhibit the same problem, can you try to eliminate data lines as well? In other words, can you find a single select line and a single data line to connect to the UMR2 that allow the setup procedure to complete normally so that the UMR can reliably trigger a single note via MIDI?

Since the CT-410 is very old, perhaps I need to create a UMR2 firmware flavor that is very discriminating in its keyboard activity detection. Perhaps there is some kind of noise or slow set-up time for keyboard data that is causing the problem.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:58 PM
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And thank you for posting the images!
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  #9  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:22 AM
nielow nielow is offline
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Thank you very much for your support so far!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
So we need to figure out what is causing the UMR2 to detect keyswitch activity that isn't actually happening. Does that make sense?
Sounds logical to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
This is kind of tricky to figure out. Since each of the select lines exhibit the same problem, can you try to eliminate data lines as well? In other words, can you find a single select line and a single data line to connect to the UMR2 that allow the setup procedure to complete normally so that the UMR can reliably trigger a single note via MIDI?
Since that are "only" 54 possible combinations, it will take a while. But I can try that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Since the CT-410 is very old, perhaps I need to create a UMR2 firmware flavor that is very discriminating in its keyboard activity detection.
Is there a way to update the firmware of the UMR2 (via SysEx?). That would be nice and a real killer feature. If not, I could possibly update it myself (USBPicProg available).

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Perhaps there is some kind of noise or slow set-up time for keyboard data that is causing the problem.
I actually have an oscilloscope (rather old Phillips 15MHz, is this sufficient?), I can try to find out if there is something happening on the select/data lines if no keys are pressed? Since I'm not really an expert, I would be glad if you can help me with that.
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  #10  
Old 07-03-2012, 09:04 PM
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If you can take one select line and one data line and take a snapshot of what they look like together on the scope, that could definitely be helpful. Thanks for the offer.

UMR2 firmware can be upgraded by MIDI sysex, so we can do it that way if it comes to that.
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  #11  
Old 07-05-2012, 07:06 AM
nielow nielow is offline
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Hi,

last time I worked on the project I decided to connect the UMR2 to a breadboard for easier debugging.

Then I started to fiddling around with some combinations, and found out that the setup procedure works with one selectline and 2 datalines disconnected.

As next step I plan to re-check my wiring to make sure it's correct, then I'll come back with some scope snapshots. (If it's still not working.)
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  #12  
Old 07-05-2012, 07:54 PM
nielow nielow is offline
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Ok.

After re-checking my wiring once again I have now identified one select line (1) and one data line (3) causing the trouble. If I leave them unconnected, the setup procedure works as expected.

I have connected both to my scope, and made a video of pressing all keys in order (C0-C4), A# and E (4th key of each group) showing strange things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBuEnSwB8Pw

If you can interpret this, I'll call you a genious.

Select 1 is for the first key only (C0), data 3 is for the 3rd key of each group.

After writing this post I wanted to do the setup procedure once again, but now data 1 and 2, with select 1 are the evil lines. So it seems not to be reproduceable.
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2012, 08:31 PM
labelwhore labelwhore is offline
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I'm keeping an eye on this thread, as I'm also having issues with data line 1 and select line 3. Could they be related?

http://forum.highlyliquid.com/showpo...8&postcount=15
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  #14  
Old 07-17-2012, 06:12 PM
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Thanks for posting the video. Unfortunately, it's hard to learn much from the scope in this case.

Any more luck?

Ultimately, I may have to source an MT-400V and perform the install to be sure of what's happening.
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2012, 05:47 AM
nielow nielow is offline
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No more progress here. Could it be related to interference? The whole key matrix circuit is shielded with aluminum tape. Should I try to use another cable to connect the lines? The one I used has very thin wires.

Or could you imagine some additional circuitry to add to the lines causing trouble to filter out noise?

A possibility to configure everything without "learning keys" (i.e. via SysEx) would also be a very nice feature of a future firmware. Maybe this could work if the issue is only relevant in the setup procedure.
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  #16  
Old 01-18-2015, 10:17 PM
funkymogli funkymogli is offline
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Default similar problems here :(

Hello!
So i finally found time to also try to retrofit the mt400v.

basically i ran in the same problems...in the setup procedure after step 5 the led doesnt´t go back to green.
it stays red.
if i then continue, and push some keys on the host keyboard, the led sometimes gets green for a fraction of a second, but the resulting mapping is not working, the host keyboard always plays a lot of notes simultaneously, no matter witch key i press on the midi keyboard.

To the wiring : i can confirm that the wiring of nielow was correct, i also tried to play the keys by connecting the select and data lines directly, works fine.

Also, when i connect any of the the data lines (without pressing any key) to ground with the scope, i get a clean 4.8 V signal. so its active-low i guess.

The select lines look hectical on the scope ..is that normal? i have not much expierience with electronics so i dont know.

As i read in the previous posting you think the problem might be that the umr2 is receiving key press all the time, so thats why its not switching back to green after sending the one midi note.
But how can that be if all the data lines are a clear 4.8 V signal ?

i doublechecked the wiring for shorts and valid connections..should be all ok (on the pictures my soldering looks even worse than it is :P)

i will try tomorrow to eliminate some of the data/select lines, i need a breadboard for that, so ill get one tomorrow.

any other ideas?

thank you!!
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  #17  
Old 01-19-2015, 04:40 PM
funkymogli funkymogli is offline
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Default little success..

so today i went on with the breadboard...
it started working after i disconnected the very first "select" line, th nr 1 (with the red cable).
i could then program the keys, the led was going red after each key press..

but:
when i played the keys on the midi keyboard a lot of keys didnt work.

i then figured out that select 1 is responsible for the lowest 6 notes (i connected it directly to the data lines and it played them).

so i left them out and started to program from fis upwards.

all the note values are now correct but still a lot missing.
can that be cause the first select line is disconnected or is it smth. else?
i doublechecked all the connections, should be all fine.
any idea what could be wrong with that first select line? on the oscilloscope it looks like all other.

i attach a picture were i marked the missing notes on the keyboard.

Thank you !
David
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Last edited by funkymogli; 01-19-2015 at 04:43 PM.
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2015, 06:30 PM
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Hi funkymogli, welcome to the forum.

The problem could simply be that the MT400V "reads" the switch data too quickly after the select pulse is initiated, and therefore the UMR2 does not inject the keystroke data quickly enough. This would make the UMR2 incompatible.

Unfortunately, there are just some keyboard models that do not work very well with the UMR2. This might be one of them.
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:04 PM
funkymogli funkymogli is offline
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hmm i dont really understand from your answer why its only partly working..shouldn´t it be completely incompatible then?

thanks..
david.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkymogli View Post
hmm i dont really understand from your answer why its only partly working..shouldn´t it be completely incompatible then?

thanks..
david.
Hi David,

I understand your logic. It's just hard to say without being there in person to troubleshoot the setup.

I notice that you marked the non-working MIDI notes in your photo. Which are the MT400V keys that won't respond to MIDI input?
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