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  #1  
Old 07-17-2013, 03:50 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default 12 audio loops, 2 channel switches MIDI foot controller for guitar pedalboard

A midi-controlled, 12 loop, 2 switches, programmable pedalboard looper
controller.

controller: 1 bank of presets (in this case one bank = 14 presets)
12 direct access loop footswithes (one for each 12 effects)
- 4 loops before the amplifier (own in and out jacks)
- 8 loops in the amplifier effects loop (own in and out jacks)

2 direct access switches for amp channel switching
- 1 = stereo jack tip to ground
- 2 = stereo jack ring to ground

2 footswitches for programming (MODE and ENTER)
- MODE switch changes between “preset mode” and “direct access mode”
- when in “direct access”, every button controls their own loop
- when pressing enter in direct access mode, the cpu asks for a
bank preset location to store the new preset. (user must press one of the 14 loop footswitches)
- when in “preset bank mode”, the footswitches control different presets.
(like preset 2 = loops 1, 3, 7 active) (like preset 5 = loops 8, 9, 10, 11 active + amp ch switch on)

looper: 12x true bypass relays, pedalsync MV-57 logic controlled relay bypass module

Do i need 2 MSA-T for controlling the MV-57's, or can i use MD24?

Do i need 2 MIDI CPU's, or will one have enough capacity for 16 switches?

-Teddy

Thanks for your replies in advance.. yes, i'm a noob =)

Switches in red are in front of the amp, switches in white are in the effects loop, green switches control amplifier channel
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2013, 11:14 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default More questions regarding the switcher/looper.

I realized i have more questions:

What's a good way to build channel switching?
I need it to "short" the tip of the plug to sleeve (GND).

Will any relay operating at 5V work?

Second, i'd like to know, that will the indicator leds on the switcher,
be controlled by the MIDI cpu OR by the MSA-T?
How does the MIDI CPU "know", what's the output state on the MSA-T?
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  #3  
Old 07-19-2013, 01:46 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default even more questions =)

The one thing that puzzles me most, is:

How to make the MIDI CPU save presets?

So suppose, that i have set the 14 switches the way i want them to be,
and i want to store the preset, with "one press of a button"?

How will i create the preset mode, and the direct access mode?

I realize there's a preset option built in to the MSA-T, but i think using it to
program presets is a bit akward. (setting dip switches etc.)
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  #4  
Old 07-19-2013, 04:42 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Just figured out.... what do i need to purchase?

For the 12 loop controller, would i need the following
Highly Liquid Products:

1x MIDI CPU (to create MIDI data from the 16 switches)
2x MSA-T (to control total of 14 relays)
1x MD24 (to control the LED's that show controller status)

Thanks,
- Teddy
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  #5  
Old 07-20-2013, 11:09 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default a some kind of a "prototype schematic"

Hello!

Here's my version of the hardware.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Thanks,
- Teddy
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2013, 03:04 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Hello! More images...

This is my version of the "amp channel control".

Correct me if i'm wrong =)
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2013, 03:55 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Hello! an image that shows what the looper is for =)

An image showing how the completed project will be used.

-Teddy
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2013, 06:04 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Summary of questions

1
Can "preset programs" be stored by setting the MSA-T outputs to the
desired states, and then using a "store command"?

(for me, the most important thing is easy, few button presses preset programming and saving) (or atleast so that it can be done without using DIP switches and powering unit on and off)

2
And also, can the preset stored be assigned to _any of the 14 switches_?

3
How does the preset saving/recalling/changing work with 2 MSA-T boards?

4
Would it be a good idea to build a LED driver board for the MD24?
To get higher currents and brighter LED's.
(in my case the LEDs are controlled directly by the MD24)
(i think 8mA current per LED would work if directly controlled by MD24)

5
When i have completed my hardware setup, can i still program the MD24, and MSA-T, invidually, as they are in a MIDI chain? Without having to "disconnect" the boards and "separately" program them?

6
Is it so, that MSA-T saves the presets to itself, and then MIDI CPU can be used to trigger them?

7
Can the MSA-T presets be called by program change commands?

8
How to "set" the MSA-T outputs? using CC commands?
Like CC1 127 = MSA-T output 1 on, CC1 0 = MSA-T output 1 off.

9
Are the hardware diagrams i've posted correct and functional?

Last edited by Teddy; 07-22-2013 at 06:19 AM. Reason: mistake in question 8
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2013, 07:18 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default One more post =) this time about programming

This is how i'd like the programming to work:

When powering up the unit, it's in preset mode, and preset "1" active.

1 Press "mode" to go to direct mode

2 Select a combination of the 14 switches

3 press Enter to go to "programming mode"
(the way enter works in direct mode)

4 Press any of the 14 switches to store the combination under it

5 press Enter to confirm

6 Then the program exits to preset mode, with the newly programmed preset
active.

Is this possible?

Thanks,
- Teddy
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2013, 01:29 PM
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John John is offline
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Default

Hi Teddy, welcome to the forum.

I'll do my best to answer some of your questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
A midi-controlled, 12 loop, 2 switches, programmable pedalboard looper
controller.

controller: 1 bank of presets (in this case one bank = 14 presets)
12 direct access loop footswithes (one for each 12 effects)
- 4 loops before the amplifier (own in and out jacks)
- 8 loops in the amplifier effects loop (own in and out jacks)

2 direct access switches for amp channel switching
- 1 = stereo jack tip to ground
- 2 = stereo jack ring to ground

2 footswitches for programming (MODE and ENTER)
- MODE switch changes between “preset mode” and “direct access mode”
- when in “direct access”, every button controls their own loop
- when pressing enter in direct access mode, the cpu asks for a
bank preset location to store the new preset. (user must press one of the 14 loop footswitches)
- when in “preset bank mode”, the footswitches control different presets.
(like preset 2 = loops 1, 3, 7 active) (like preset 5 = loops 8, 9, 10, 11 active + amp ch switch on)

looper: 12x true bypass relays, pedalsync MV-57 logic controlled relay bypass module

Do i need 2 MSA-T for controlling the MV-57's, or can i use MD24?

Do i need 2 MIDI CPU's, or will one have enough capacity for 16 switches?
Ok.

- The MSA-T is probably the best choice for controlling the relay modules, assuming that they can be controlled by an "open collector" type trigger circuit.

- One MIDI CPU should be enough for all of the control switches.

- You will want to upgrade your MSA boards to the latest firmware (v3.2) so that you can take advantage of the improved preset behavior & direct access response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
1
Can "preset programs" be stored by setting the MSA-T outputs to the
desired states, and then using a "store command"?

(for me, the most important thing is easy, few button presses preset programming and saving) (or atleast so that it can be done without using DIP switches and powering unit on and off)
Yes. Check out the firmware 3.2 discussion and user manual, linked above.

Quote:
2
And also, can the preset stored be assigned to _any of the 14 switches_?
Yes, on the MIDI CPU -based controller, you can have a latching switch that changes the function of the control switches between "preset select" and something else.

Quote:
3
How does the preset saving/recalling/changing work with 2 MSA-T boards?
The boards will work in tandem and function as a single unit with 16 outputs.

Quote:
4
Would it be a good idea to build a LED driver board for the MD24?
To get higher currents and brighter LED's.
(in my case the LEDs are controlled directly by the MD24)
(i think 8mA current per LED would work if directly controlled by MD24)
At 8mA each, direct drive from the MD24 will work fine.

Quote:
5
When i have completed my hardware setup, can i still program the MD24, and MSA-T, invidually, as they are in a MIDI chain? Without having to "disconnect" the boards and "separately" program them?
The MIDI CPU blocks sysex messages, so it will not pass configuration messages intended for other boards.

However, the MSA and MD24 units will indeed pass sysex via their MIDI THRU ports. So the answer to the question is yes. (The MSA includes "device ID" addressing so that you can target an individual board in a chain. See the firmware user manual. The MD24 does not have this functionality in the current firmware, but with only one MD24 board, it is not an issue.)

Quote:
6
Is it so, that MSA-T saves the presets to itself, and then MIDI CPU can be used to trigger them?
Yes. Think of the MIDI CPU as sending program change messages to select presets, and CC messages for direct access. The MIDI CPU sends the messages but does not have "knowledge" of the preset functionality. All of the presets are stored inside the MSA.

Quote:
7
Can the MSA-T presets be called by program change commands?
Yes. Please review the firmware v3.2 manual, linked above.

Quote:
8
How to "set" the MSA-T outputs? using CC commands?
Like CC1 127 = MSA-T output 1 on, CC1 0 = MSA-T output 1 off.
Yes, this one approach that will work.

Quote:
9
Are the hardware diagrams i've posted correct and functional?
They look like a good start. Make sure to use the MD24 MIDI THRU port to pass the MIDI signal to the MSA-Ts. The MD24 "MIDI OUT" port will not do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
This is how i'd like the programming to work:

When powering up the unit, it's in preset mode, and preset "1" active.

1 Press "mode" to go to direct mode

2 Select a combination of the 14 switches

3 press Enter to go to "programming mode"
(the way enter works in direct mode)

4 Press any of the 14 switches to store the combination under it

5 press Enter to confirm

6 Then the program exits to preset mode, with the newly programmed preset
active.

Is this possible?

Thanks,
- Teddy
Almost, but there are some differences. Here is how editing an MSA preset works:

1. Recall any preset (using program change, for example)
2. Edit relay states using direct access commands (CC, for example)
3. Store the new preset state using the "store" command (a special CC command).
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  #11  
Old 07-22-2013, 03:00 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Thanks for your reply!! =)

Great info! Thank you very much. I'll be ordering my set of
Highly Liquid MIDI boards within few months.

But one thing that i'm thinking is:

If i recall a preset from the MSA-T board memory,
can i "see it" on the LED's that the MD24 controls?


Or is it so with preset programming:

1
Call up a preset

2
The preset is "zeroed" (because data doesn't flow from MSA to CPU)
(like every control on the MIDI CPU and MD24 LEDs are off)
(no loops active)

3
Program the preset using the switches on the MIDI CPU

4
store the preset using the special command

I hope you understand my bad english and lack of knowledge =)

-Teddy
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2013, 04:00 PM
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John John is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
Great info! Thank you very much. I'll be ordering my set of
Highly Liquid MIDI boards within few months.

But one thing that i'm thinking is:

If i recall a preset from the MSA-T board memory,
can i "see it" on the LED's that the MD24 controls?


Or is it so with preset programming:

1
Call up a preset

2
The preset is "zeroed" (because data doesn't flow from MSA to CPU)
(like every control on the MIDI CPU and MD24 LEDs are off)
(no loops active)

3
Program the preset using the switches on the MIDI CPU

4
store the preset using the special command

I hope you understand my bad english and lack of knowledge =)

-Teddy
Maybe it is helpful to think of things this way:

- The MIDI CPU is "stateless". It doesn't "know or care" what the current preset is. All that it does is send program change commands (or CC commands) for whatever switches are pressed.

- The MSA and MD24 both "know" the preset number because of the last program change command that was sent by the MIDI CPU. It is ok that data does not flow back to the MIDI CPU.

Does that make sense? Let me know if I did not answer your question.
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  #13  
Old 07-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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John John is offline
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Default

Also, if you would like to have LED indication for each MSA output, you don't need an MD24 for that. Each MSA output has an indicator LED that can be mounted on the MSA itself, or remotely on a control panel.
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  #14  
Old 07-22-2013, 04:25 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Hey, i think i got it!

Thanks for answering!

Here's a new question:

Can i program the MSA-T so, that when i recall a preset, i'd
have a button on the MIDI CPU controller, that would set all MSA-T
outputs to "off-state"? a sort of "reset-switch".

Then i could program the preset using MIDI CPU, and press "store-button".
And when programming individual MSA outputs, i could "see" the preset,
through Midi CPU controlled MD24 driving LED's.

Thanks a lot,
- Teddy
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  #15  
Old 07-23-2013, 08:48 AM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Hello John! Can i have a "bank" button on the MIDI CPU controller?

Hello John!

Is it possible to configure a button so, that when pressed, it changes the
data other buttons send?

I'd like to have a bank button, that when pressed, it changes the
MIDI program change commands from 1-14 to 17-30.

So then my controller would have 28 presets total.

And in general too, is it possible for a button to have 2 functions?
Or more precisely, two different functions, depending on the state of
an other switch (switch 15 on, switch 16 is MSA-T preset store command)
(switch 15 off, switch 16 mode changes to bank select)

Thanks for your reply in advance,
- Teddy
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  #16  
Old 07-23-2013, 03:24 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Hello! I'm just asking, that is this possible?

MIDI CPU PSEUDO CODE:

startup sequence:

-choose preset number 1 (on power up, send program change 1)

main:

(program changes are used to switch presets on MSA-T)
(the program changes are also used to control MD24, to light up corresponding LED's)

-if pressed 0, send program change 1 ----> Light up MD24 Led 0 only
-if pressed 1, send program change 2 ----> Light up MD24 Led 1 only
-if pressed 2, send program change 3 ----> Light up MD24 Led 2 only
-if pressed 3, send program change 4 ----> Light up MD24 Led 3 only
-if pressed 4, send program change 5 ----> Light up MD24 Led 4 only
-if pressed 5, send program change 6 ----> Light up MD24 Led 5 only
-if pressed 6, send program change 7 ----> Light up MD24 Led 6 only
-if pressed 7, send program change 8 ----> Light up MD24 Led 7 only
-if pressed 8, send program change 9 ----> Light up MD24 Led 8 only
-if pressed 9, send program change 10 ----> Light up MD24 Led 9 only
-if pressed 10, send program change 11 ----> Light up MD24 Led 10 only
-if pressed 11, send program change 12 ----> Light up MD24 Led 11 only
-if pressed 12, send program change 13 ----> Light up MD24 Led 12 only
-if pressed 13, send program change 14 ----> Light up MD24 Led 13 only
----------------------------------------------------

(when pressing ENTER, control 14 on MIDI CPU, the system goes into programming mode)

-if pressed 14, enter, (send control change command 100, value 127)
(this is for the MD24, to light up the correct led)
(if MD24 reveives control change command 100, value 127, then LED 14 will turn on)
(if MD24 reveives control change command 100, value 0, then LED 14 will turn off)


-changes the behavior of control inputs 0-13 to send control change messages,
instead of program change

-also "resets" the MSA-T. Done by sending control changes 1-14 value 0

-then changes function of control 14 to program store command.

then goes: (setup of the current preset)

-if pressed 0, send control change 1 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 0 on
-if pressed 0 again, send control change 1 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 0 off

-if pressed 1, send control change 2 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 1 on
-if pressed 1 again, send control change 2 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 1 off

-if pressed 2, send control change 3 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 2 on
-if pressed 2 again, send control change 3 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 2 off

-if pressed 3, send control change 4 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 3 on
-if pressed 3 again, send control change 4 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 3 off

-if pressed 4, send control change 5 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 4 on
-if pressed 4 again, send control change 5 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 4 off

-if pressed 5, send control change 6 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 5 on
-if pressed 5 again, send control change 6 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 5 off

-if pressed 6, send control change 7 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 6 on
-if pressed 6 again, send control change 7 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 6 off

-if pressed 7, send control change 8 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 7 on
-if pressed 7 again, send control change 8 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 7 off

-if pressed 8, send control change 9 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 8 on
-if pressed 8 again, send control change 9 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 8 off

-if pressed 9, send control change 10 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 9 on
-if pressed 9 again, send control change 10 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 9 off

-if pressed 10, send control change 11 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 10 on
-if pressed 10 again, send control change 11 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 10 off

-if pressed 11, send control change 12 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 11 on
-if pressed 11 again, send control change 12 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 11 off

-if pressed 12, send control change 13 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 12 on
-if pressed 12 again, send control change 13 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 12 off

-if pressed 13, send control change 14 value 127 ---> Turn MD24 LED 13 on
-if pressed 13 again, send control change 14 value 0 ---> Turn MD24 LED 13 off

-if pressed control 14, enter, again, this time it sends the program store command.
Then sends program change, with the current preset number "nn"
and lights the corresponding led on the MD24.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
(control 15, MODE, changes the preset bank between program changes 1-14 or 17-30)
(when pressed, control 15, MODE, sends Control Change 101 value 127, to turn on MD24 LED 15)
(when pressed again, control 15 MODE, sends Control Change 101 value 0, to turn off MD24 LED 15)

-if pressed 15, bank change.
this changes the behavior of 14 program switches like:

-if pressed 0, send program change 17 ----> Light up MD24 Led 0 only
-if pressed 1, send program change 18 ----> Light up MD24 Led 1 only
-if pressed 2, send program change 19 ----> Light up MD24 Led 2 only
-if pressed 3, send program change 20 ----> Light up MD24 Led 3 only
-if pressed 4, send program change 21 ----> Light up MD24 Led 4 only
-if pressed 5, send program change 22 ----> Light up MD24 Led 5 only
-if pressed 6, send program change 23 ----> Light up MD24 Led 6 only
-if pressed 7, send program change 24 ----> Light up MD24 Led 7 only
-if pressed 8, send program change 25 ----> Light up MD24 Led 8 only
-if pressed 9, send program change 26 ----> Light up MD24 Led 9 only
-if pressed 10, send program change 27 ----> Light up MD24 Led 10 only
-if pressed 11, send program change 28 ----> Light up MD24 Led 11 only
-if pressed 12, send program change 29 ----> Light up MD24 Led 12 only
-if pressed 13, send program change 30 ----> Light up MD24 Led 13 only

If pressed controller 15 again, returns to lower bank:

-if pressed 0, send program change 1 ----> Light up MD24 Led 0 only
-if pressed 1, send program change 2 ----> Light up MD24 Led 1 only
-if pressed 2, send program change 3 ----> Light up MD24 Led 2 only
-if pressed 3, send program change 4 ----> Light up MD24 Led 3 only
-if pressed 4, send program change 5 ----> Light up MD24 Led 4 only
-if pressed 5, send program change 6 ----> Light up MD24 Led 5 only
-if pressed 6, send program change 7 ----> Light up MD24 Led 6 only
-if pressed 7, send program change 8 ----> Light up MD24 Led 7 only
-if pressed 8, send program change 9 ----> Light up MD24 Led 8 only
-if pressed 9, send program change 10 ----> Light up MD24 Led 9 only
-if pressed 10, send program change 11 ----> Light up MD24 Led 10 only
-if pressed 11, send program change 12 ----> Light up MD24 Led 11 only
-if pressed 12, send program change 13 ----> Light up MD24 Led 12 only
-if pressed 13, send program change 14 ----> Light up MD24 Led 13 only

Last edited by Teddy; 07-24-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2013, 04:42 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default i think i need a lot of help with the software =)

I hope, that i'll get some help regarding the programming.

It's a bit out of my reach at the moment.

But mainly for me, the important thing is to know,
that what i want, can be done.

I'll place an order within few months...

But in the meantime, i'd like to know that my project is possible =)
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  #18  
Old 07-24-2013, 02:33 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default Hello World!

//the fixed header
F0 00 01 5D 04 01

//configures control terminal 0 to send control change 1, value 127
00 00 00 4C 00 1 7F

//footer
F7

Is this correct sysex? Could i send a bunch of these to the MIDI CPU
to program it control terminal by control terminal?

Also if you could see the "pseudo code" post above, and comment on it,
that is it possible? If it's not ok, i'd change the plan, and then post some
"pseudo code" again, until the idea is right.

When everything is in order, i'd start writing the sysex program... =)

- Teddy
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  #19  
Old 07-24-2013, 03:19 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default A picture showing what i'm trying to say =)

As you see, there's the controller, and, theres the switcher/decoder.

- Teddy
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  #20  
Old 07-24-2013, 04:07 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
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Default How is this done?

>>>Yes, on the MIDI CPU -based controller, you can have a latching switch
>>>that changes the function of the control switches between "preset
>>>select" and something else.

So i can have a switch, that changes the behavior of 14 switches?

For example, latching control switch off, i have 14 "Program Change" commands.

Then, latching control switch on, i have 14 "Control Change" commands.

If this can be done, i'm ordering the Highly Liquid stuff =)
I tried to read the manual of MIDI CPU, but i didn't find anything about this.

If i need to add few buttons to the controller, it doesn't matter =)
But it would be cool to be able to do the controller with only 2 "programming buttons", namely called bank and enter... and the rest 14, would control the MSA-T.

-Teddy
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